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Roy Johnson об измерениях

 
 
Roy Johnson - это автор акустики Green Mountain Audio. Заинтересовавшись его АС, я написал ему следующее письмо:
Цитата
Hi, Roy!

Could you, please, post on your site or send me by e-mail some measurements (graphs) of
Europa and Callisto speakers:
- frequency response (on- and off-axis)
- impedance
- waterfall
- impulse & step responses
- group delay
- excess phase
- THD & IMD

Best regards,
Chesky
На что был получен следующий ответ:
Цитата
Dear Chesky,

Thank you for your interest in our speakers. I imagine you have already visited our website.

I apologize for this delay in answering you, but I needed to make the time to give you a considered response. This is a lengthy subject, and I am certain I will do a better job when I finish the technical-library pages for the website. I shall endeavor to give you as much here as an e-mail format will allow.

I appreciate this opportunity to share some measurements with you (which we are preparing for the website), and I explain them below. However, it is important to understand something that lies at the central position of making measurements on speakers-- there is no measurement, nor a collection of measurements that will tell anyone how a speaker will sound.

Certain measurements will tell you if a speaker is worth an audition, which does help, of course. John Atkinson of Stereophile has been measuring speakers for many years, and so have many others, but with only partial success.

This is not to imply that measuring speakers is a hopeless endeavor. What I have found, and I am sure many others have also, is that very many measurements are required, because each one characterizes only one or two aspects of a speaker's performance. Those are the measurements I cannot release, or others will then know my engineering. But let us suppose I could release everything. If so, let us take the simplest example:

If you ask for the frequency response--
Do you want the anechoic response? This is the frequency response of the speaker in a place without any surfaces near it, such as outdoors, placed on a pole at least 10 meters above the ground. Therefore, such a measurement will not show how a room will boost that speaker's bass response. Anything below 400Hz in this measurement is not representative of what we hear in a room. We also cannot accurately 'splice' onto this measurement what its woofer measured up close, because that again leaves out the room's effect on the bass.

Do you want the frequency response to be taken in a room?
For that, should we use pink noise, a sinewave-sweep, the MLS noise, or tone bursts? Each measures something different.
-Pink noise on a spectrum analyzer tells you something about the tone balance, but that is not accurate because the room's echo is picked up in the bass and voice range. The analyzer does not know how we humans add (or reject!) those sounds with the direct sound from the speaker.
-A sinewave sweep will not reveal how the room boosts the sound below 250Hz if you run the sweep quickly. If you run it slowly, then echoes spoil what you are seeking in the mids and highs.
-MLS testing is useful, but only inside of a few millisecond window, which therefore does not allow one to capture much information below one kHz.
-Tone bursts can reveal much, but the length of each burst should vary with frequency, in order to better mimic how we perceive the room affecting the tone balance, burst by burst.

If we look at an impulse response, it has a very high peak-to-average ratio, so by the time you get the average level 'loud enough' to simulate real music, then you are running a moment of a thousand Watts to the tweeter. This is for a brief impulse, less than a millisecond long, which means that nothing below 1kHz is stimulated.

When the impulse response is lengthened to several milliseconds long, then you pick up a floor reflection that obscures what you are seeking. If you move the microphone very close to the woofer to avoid the floor reflection, then you do have an accurate measurement of that woofer up to a few hundred Hertz, but how do you know its phase response, the timing, so that you know then how to blend that with the midrange driver.

What about using a square-wave response? If you run a continuous series of square waves, then after the first one or two, you will be reading room reflections. If you perform this test in an anechoic chamber, then the amplitudes of the low-frequencies that make up a 10 or 20ms low-frequency square-wave are not loud enough, distorting the squareness of the waves.

The answer is to use a combination of measurements. Even then, your hearing is better, and actually help the measurement process. One must know a) what each measurement CAN and CANNOT reveal, and b) what the speaker is likely to be doing wrong (or right), so that the correct test is selected, and then the correct music used to listen.

Most computer-based impulse analysis I see used cannot resolve with clarity any detail that lasts for less than about 1/10th of one millisecond, yet that is exactly the time it takes for a tweeter to bounce sound off of its own faceplate. If you put wool felt around the tweeter to absorb those reflections, you can easily hear that, and any ordinary analog spectrum analyzer will read that, using steady pink noise. The MLS test will also read that. Tone burst testing will reveal some of that. And it hardly shows at all on an impulse response. Unfortunately, most raw tweeters are designed to have those low-treble reflections to produce 'a flat frequency response.' This is not true for the tweeters we use.

What I do is start with what I feel are the very best raw drivers, and sometimes modify them to improve any shortcomings.
I always strive to give each driver the very best environment from which to launch its sound: An environment that does not resonate on the inside of the enclosure, an enclosure that does not vibrate or ring, and an enclosure shaped on the outside using the principals of psychoacoustics that say quite clearly which reflections are good, which are bad. I describe this approach to design of the external shape of each enclosure, in each speaker's design concepts on the website. I go into the most detail in the Continuum 3 speaker.

I hope this helps you understand how I go about designing our speakers. It has been a very long process, and I learned much from all the hard work of others who published their results beginning in the 1930's. I have simply moved their work forward with my own research.

I have attached some of the measurements our raw-driver manufacturers provide. Most are taken in anechoic chambers at one meter. None have crossover circuits added. In those anechoic chambers, these drivers are mounted flush in a reflective wall, so the graphs do not entirely show how remarkable these parts are, nor how they measure after I am finished with them. These graphs will also mislead you, as noted below.

The Callisto tweeter's decay graph does not show the effects of damping we add to its chassis.
Its response curve does not show the effect of the wool felt placed around it. These are both MLS measurements. As with most MLS measurements, they have only 20Hz-wide windows (frequency 'bins'). Thus, very narrow-band resonances would not be shown.

The Calypso speaker's midrange-distortion graph show its 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortions to be extremely low. That graph however, does not tell you how it performs on complex tones.
Its frequency-response graph is remarkably smooth, but does not really show you if any small resonances exist. It does show that no large resonances exist.

The Pico Series midrange driver's frequency response graph is also remarkably smooth, but it does not tell you how much of that response is aided by reflections off the wall in which it is mounted, in that anechoic chamber.

The Pico Mideo/Grande woofer's response is also very smooth, but does not tell you how your floor boosts all of its bass response, nor how my cabinet tuning affects the bass response. It does show that it has no midrange- or high-frequency problems.

I have nothing I can share on the Europa/Callisto woofer, but only the overall impedance curve for the Europa. The Callisto impedance is very similar. Note that it is very 'flat.' One of our international distributors ran this graph out of curiosity, probably quickly. When such a graph is run quickly, then no narrow-band resonances are seen. When I perform an impedance curve here during the design process, it takes me at least an hour to achieve 1 Hz resolution, to look for and then fix resonances. This is one attention to detail that lies behind everyone's comments on the clarity of our speakers. Please read the sixmoons review on the Callisto- there is a link on the Callisto pages on our website.

Finally, time-coherence, or phase response is a difficult thing to measure, because a small movement of the microphone changes the results, and often a single, pure tone left running can build up just enough reflection between the microphone and the speaker to alter the results. But we do not listen to sustained pure tones, and our speakers also adjust for time-coherency to any listening position, an innovation I am proud to say no other company gives to their customers.

I will point out that the June 1994 issue of Stereophile does show the very low group-delay/phase-error of my original Diamante design, along with its impulse response. I do not have their permission to publish those results. Although I am proud of those results, all speaker models today are far better. I do have permission to show you the review from Audio Ideas Guide magazine, attached here, but please note the presence of the furniture next to the speaker! Regardless, the measurements are indicative of our performance. Do read the editor's comments about the sound.

On our website, if you look at how I state the measurements for our specifications of each model, you will see I respect the presence of the room's boundaries, the impulsive nature of music, and the distance of the listener. Those are very important considerations, for which sine-wave or pink noise tests taken at one meter do not work.

When you hear our speakers, or contact some of our owners who were gracious enough to make their email addresses known for our website, you will find out about the exact clarity of any image in every frequency range, which is the mark of a truly time-coherent design. You will hear each tone to have the correct amplitude, because you will be able to judge things such as the low-voice being in balance with the middle voice, and the sibilance of the voice in proper balance with the entire voice. As you work outwards from there, using different music, you will hear that each part of the spectrum is in balance with the rest, no matter what type of music you play, no matter what amplifier you use.

Thank you again for your interest. It may be at least one month before I can finish my technical library for the website, so do check back in the future. I hope you can hear our speakers someday. You would be very surprised.

Best regards,
Roy Johnson
Designer
Green Mountain Audio
 
 
2 Chesky Records

Отличное письмо! Передайте ему благодарность за подробный и аккуратный ответ. Вот эти цитаты из начала письма хочется сразу перевести (сразу прошу прощения за качество перевода "на бегу") :

Цитата
it is important to understand something that lies at the central position of making measurements on speakers-- there is no measurement, nor a collection of measurements that will tell anyone how a speaker will sound.

Важно понять нечто, лежащее в центре измерений громкоговорителей - не существует измерения, или набора измерений, которые расскажут любому человеку, как именно будет звучать та или иная акустика.

Цитата
Certain measurements will tell you if a speaker is worth an audition, which does help, of course. John Atkinson of Stereophile has been measuring speakers for many years, and so have many others, but with only partial success.

Определённые измерения скажут, если акустику есть смысл прослушать, что, разумеется, помогает. Джон Аткинсон из Стереофайла измеряет акустику много лет, так же, как и многие другие, но только с частичным успехом.

Цитата
This is not to imply that measuring speakers is a hopeless endeavor. What I have found, and I am sure many others have also, is that very many measurements are required, because each one characterizes only one or two aspects of a speaker's performance. Those are the measurements I cannot release, or others will then know my engineering

Это не значит, что измерение акустики - безнадёжное занятие. Я обнаружил, как, я уверен, и многие другие, что требуется очень много (разных) измерений, поскольку каждое из них характеризует только одну-две стороны работы акустики. Такие измерения я не могу публиковать, поскольку тогда другие узнают о тонкостях моих разработок.

________________

Алексей
 
 
Письмо-отмазка, когда в измерениях особо похвалиться не чем (IMHO).
 
 
PS

я просто не люблю когда на конкретный вопрос НЕТ конкретного ответа, а на чинается бадяга о "потустороннем", это типичнейший прием шарлатанов-разводил продавцов\маркетеров.
Когда я на презентации был с ребятами, которые в hifi не один десяток лет, на наш простой вопрос : покажите измерения, оттавский "дизайнер" начал нам сливать примерно тот же елей, на тупорылого канадоса это действовало безотказно - пара лакеев промывали мозги "аудиофилам" в других углах зала, которые с глубокомысленным видом со всем соглашались..., а вот наших братьев-иммигрантов хрен проведешь - никто не поверил, что эта акустика что-то стоящее, смотрите сами, я уже как то об этом здесь говорил:

http://stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/805tetra/

в этом случае измерения лучше не показывать.  
 
 
Цитата
я просто не люблю когда на конкретный вопрос НЕТ конкретного ответа, а на чинается бадяга о "потустороннем", это типичнейший прием шарлатанов-разводил продавцов\маркетеров.

АБСОЛЮТНО ТОЧНО подмечено. В ответ на ПРОСТЕЙШУЮ просьбу ПОКАЗАТЬ графики (а НЕ пиздЕть!) товарищь НЕ поленился(!!!) и наспускал ТОННУ СОПЛЕЙ совершенно НЕЗНАКОМОМУ ему "юзеру", который, к тому же, еще ничего НЕ купил. Ржунимагу.

Ну, а мудак-никитин, как всегда, в своем репертуаре попа-афериста. ЧМО.
 
 
Цитата
John Atkinson of Stereophile has been measuring speakers for many years, and so have many others, but with only partial success.

Можно подумать, что Джон Аткинсон СТАВИЛ перед собой какую-то ЦЕЛЬ (измеряя акустику) и НЕ достиг ее, либо достиг лишь "частично". Что за бред???? Аткинсон измеряет акустику потому что это ПОЛОЖЕНО. Потому что это часть "ЭТИКЕТА", если можно так выразиться. Измерения придают журналу эдакую НАУКООБРАЗНОСТЬ. И все дела.
 
 
2 Серж Канада (2, 3)

Цитата
Письмо-отмазка, когда в измерениях особо похвалиться не чем (IMHO).

Цитата
наших братьев-иммигрантов хрен проведешь

В данном случае Вы сами себя водите за нос :) . Письмо написано серьёзно и даже придраться к конкретным аргументам на мой взгляд сложно. Боясь, что Вас обманут, Вы хотите простого объяснения для очень сложного вопроса. В результате Вы легко верите демагогии того же Рауля, который упрощает всё до совершенно смешного уровня, но не хотите верить разработчику, когда он пытается ответить всерьёз.

Меня здесь на форуме регулярно ругают за туманность и неопределённость ответов. Причина та же самая - придумывать красивую сказку, пригодную для желающих простоты, мне неинтересно, а при попытке объяснения хотя бы каких-то тонкостей, люди, думающие, что они что-то понимают в вопросе, начинают затевать идиотские по своей сути дискусии, когда объяснить им что-либо на уровне их понимания и при полном нежелании учиться с их стороны, просто невозможно - пустая трата времени :) . Раньше я пытался, но уже довольно давно просто оставил эти попытки, и отвечаю только на конкретные вопросы, когда вижу, что человек подойдёт к ответу без предвзятости.

Поймите, что та же самая проблема будет у любого профессионала, который попытается объяснить что-то в своей области дилетанту или любителю. Многие вещи потребуют опыта и специальных знаний, которых у любителя просто нет.

Заметьте, что те, кто профессионально делает аппаратуру, крайне редко критикуют, этим занимаются люди, кто сами никогда ничего не сотворили :) . Разумеется, их отмазка  - как же, критики независимы, а у производителя всегда на уме только продажи. Но это - крайне поверхностный взгляд и по сути то, на чём Вас и других любителей простых истин ловят любые мурзилки, или Рауль, или Елбаев, или кто-нибудь ещё, чьё объяснение Вам пришлось по душе.

Любые простые объяснения - это для лохов, к сожалению.

Алексей
 
 
Цитата
Do you want the anechoic response?
Цитата
Do you want the frequency response to be taken in a room?
For that, should we use pink noise, a sinewave-sweep, the MLS noise, or tone bursts?
Цитата
What about using a square-wave response?

Чески, ты уж ответь парню "What the fuck do you really want?" А то он, бедняга, не знает, как измерения проводить. С какого конца браться совершенно не представляет. Бугагагааааа!!!!
 
 

Цитата
"What the fuck do you really want?"


Цитата
придумывать красивую сказку

:)
 
 
Никитину..

//Любые простые объяснения - это для лохов, к сожалению.

Алексей, если у вас есть дети, как же вы им обьясняете какие либо вещи и явления??
начиная со слов-- " детка, ты - лошина..все равно ничего НЕ поймешь..поэтому .....бла-бла-бла!!"

[small]Отредактировано: 23-11-2005, 11:53[/small]
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